B2B My Guest with Vicki Handley

Charli Hunt: Vicki, thank you so much for being on B2B My Guest.

We are so happy to have you. Please introduce yourself.

Vicki Handley: I'm Vicki Hanley. I'm known as LinkedIn's favorite green haired ghostwriter, copywriter, copy educator. It's all sorts of things. It's just basically green hair. So yeah, I'm all over LinkedIn.

Charli Hunt: That is the best thing to be able to stand out with green hair. And it's very matching with The Lime One.

Vicki Handley: Yeah, exactly. I'm on brand.

Charli Hunt: Vicki, you are brilliant on LinkedIn. You're also a great speaker as well. One of the things that took me ages to start using LinkedIn, and I don't know if you were the same, but it took me ages to get that confidence up. So how can people get the confidence to start posting on LinkedIn?

Vicki Handley: So when I started using LinkedIn, I used it as a CV site. I think a lot of people do. You think you just post job updates and it's like a CV ultimately. And when I was posting, I was only talking about work stuff. It was very boring, vanilla. And the best way to get that confidence that I found was to just start talking about what I was doing. Just start really, really small, is probably my first bit of advice. Baby steps. Don't sit down and think right, from now on I'm going to post 7 days a week and I'm going to do, I'm going to do all these weird and wonderful things to start posting because you're going to set yourself up to fail. If you're starting from scratch, I'd say commit to doing maybe 3 posts a week.

Something you could do Monday, Wednesday, Friday if you wanted something like that. It feels really weird at the start. It does because you're an imposter at that stage because you've not done it before. And it probably won't be very good at the start either. But flip side of that doesn't matter because not many people are going to see it. So yeah, start small and build. And don't think you have to showcase things. Start by documenting what you're doing, who you're talking to, the work that you're doing. And the way that I explain LinkedIn to people when they're new to it is I treat it very much like an office kitchen. So if you come from an office background, if you don't, I'll explain it anyway, but like office kitchens are where you go to get a bit of gossip, a bit of banter, find out how people are doing in real life, but also talk a little bit about work stuff as well.

So that nice combination of things is a really good place and just don't take it too seriously because we all overthink it. And I did for probably eight, nine months. And then I just suddenly thought, you know what, I need to do this differently. And I got some advice.

And yeah, it worked for me. It really, really worked. Taking it off the pedestal, I think, is the main thing. We get stuck in the trap of thinking what you're posting has to be worthy of posting. And it's like, no, actually it doesn't. It's just you talking. Treat it like a diary, if you want. That's what I do a lot of the time.

Charli Hunt: I love that. Helen gave me some great advice the other day as well. If people want to start posting, one of the things that's probably holding you back is this fear of judgment. So just remove anyone from your network, like your family or any particularly judgmental friends. If you're worried about them judging you, just get rid of them.

They won't care.

Vicki Handley: Yeah that's what my friend Chris James does. When he started his business, he was still employed. So his connections were a lot of people from the agency where he was working. And he said that put him off. So like you said, he actually blocked a lot of them, like good friends, cause he wasn't ready for them to see it yet.

And he said the pressure was gone. He could just be himself. So yeah, I've seen it work really well for other people as well.

Charli Hunt: That's brilliant advice. So are you of the opinion that everyone can write. It's just that you've got to start learning it

Vicki Handley: Yeah, I am. I really am. I think English teachers across the land have a lot to answer for with their red pens. Because so many people that I speak to, they have this preconceived idea, like whether they're an academic or whether they've just got school experience or whatever, of what writing should be.

And actually writing on socials is so different from any other kind of writing, like academic papers, writing a story, all those other things. I truly believe that anyone can do it with the right guidance. And copywriting itself is a learned skill. It's formulas, it's specific structures.

It's all about building an argument and you can learn how to do that. And when you know how to do that, it becomes so much easier. So yeah, I honestly believe anybody can write for their business. What it looks like is different for each business and sectors and everything else. But I truly believe that anyone can learn how to do it and use it to their advantage.

Charli Hunt: I'm the same and I think LinkedIn's the best place to learn how to do it because nobody cares if it's a little bit messy or if the grammar is a bit off. It just doesn't matter.

Vicki Handley: It's cliche copywriting advice, but you write like you speak. When you do it right it's an extension of you. It can be a stream of consciousness if you want it to be. That's how I do it. What they see is what they get, isn't it?

You want them to get the whole picture of you and what you're about and how you do things and people really get to know you. Like it's strange how much people get to know you and how much resonates with them and you share an example or a story and people want to weigh in and be part of that conversation.

And I think people forget that social side of the platform. It's a social network, that's where the opportunities are. And that's where things happen behind like partnerships and clients and connections, like it's about genuine connection. And the first step of that is having the courage to put yourself out there and just have

some sort of voice, but I get that it's scary. It was scary for me right at the start as well.

Charli Hunt: I agree. Yeah, what are your thoughts on LinkedIn post templates?

Vicki Handley: I think as a starting point, they can be really, really helpful. But that said, you have to know how to use a template. So many people just literally fill in the blanks. And that's not the way to do it. I do use templates with some of my clients as a starting point to get them thinking differently about how to present ideas and things, but it's only for structural purposes, so they can see how you can build it. It's an example of how to build an argument in a particular way, or it could be potentially using some sort of copywriting formula or something like that, just to demonstrate what it looks like, so that when they're creating their own stuff, alongside the stuff that I'm doing for them, they've got a system to follow because a lot of people really want that structure.

They want to understand how it works so they can do it themselves. And actually that's part of, partly why I created my own program showing people how to write. And because it really helps them to get started. And then the more they repeat, the more they practice. The more they can do themselves and then ultimately the aim, the aim for me with all my writing clients is that eventually they get that confidence and they don't need me anymore.

It's always my aim to graduate them and get them to do their own thing. And for a lot of them, that starting point is those templates . But we show them how to make the most of those, rather than just literally filling in the blanks.

Because you can see on LinkedIn, those posts that have been created using templates. And there's a bit of a disjoint, like it's a bit jarring, isn't it? A mismatch between tones of voice and everything else. But I'm probably more sensitive to it because obviously I do this for a living. But yeah, as a starting point, if that's what's going to get you going, use a template. But just use them flexibly, don't use them as a rigid thing, you can have space for your own thinking and your own ideas in there as well.

Charli Hunt: And what about people who feel like they're too boring or they don't have anything to say on LinkedIn?

Vicki Handley: Okay. First, I hear this a lot, like a lot of my writing clients, they're like, I want to write, I want to create content, but I haven't got anything interesting to say. First thing I say is shut up. That's silly. Stop with the negative self talk. Humans are a very selfish species. We are very self absorbed. If you don't feel what you have to say is interesting, focus on solving someone else's problem.

That is instantly interesting and relevant to them. So by being helpful or useful, um, it makes you feel a bit better because you're talking about something that you know or that you've experienced or that you understand. But you're not putting yourself out there on a parapet either. So it's like if you focus on problem solving and dealing with people's challenges and how you do that in your day to day life, that's instantly going to be interesting for someone. If you can make their life easier, more enjoyable, make them more money, make them spend less money, those kinds of things, they're instantly going to be like, Oh, okay, this is interesting.

So actually if you start from that place, it kind of takes the pressure off and just focus on them and what they're. going to get from it. That's a really, really good way of sort of starting. It comes back to that idea that I mentioned before, which is people put content on a pedestal. They feel like it has to be something fantastic, fantastic. Like I've won an award, I've changed a job role. I've done this, I've done that. And there is a lot of that kind of stuff on LinkedIn because people want to celebrate it and people love to brag about the good things that they've got, they've done things. But the content I find most interesting and the content that gets me clients and gets my clients clients is more day to day stuff. It's like the, the, what they're doing in their day to day period. So again, it comes back to stop showcasing and just start documenting what you're doing and talking about the conversations you're having, the work you're doing.

It could be a deep piece of deep work. It could be a conversation with a team member, could be the state of your desk on a Monday morning. Like it doesn't, it doesn't have to be something profound, like some of the weird quotes you see on there that get millions of comments. It doesn't have to be like that. And when you kind of take it off that pedestal and you just start talking, just start, just, sharing your experience, that's when people start coming out of the woodwork and just chatting to you. And that's when you make actual connections with people, like real, like genuine connections rather than just a numbers game. And I've met so many people, these last, I've been using LinkedIn properly for about two and a half years now, I've met people I would never have met in real life, I was going to say then, um, out in the real world because we're just in different geographies or different sectors, like we just never would have crossed paths and three of them, I consider to be my best friends now. So yeah, it opens so many doors and it all starts with just that one post. Just, just having the courage to just say something, doesn't even matter what it is, just say something, because once you've done that one, the next one becomes a little bit less difficult, and then the next one becomes a little bit less difficult, and then before you know it, it's just another thing that you do, day to day. So yeah , you're not boring, you're not boring, just focus on somebody else's problem and how you solve it, and you're halfway there.

Charli Hunt: I really love that. There's a book I read called show your work. It's up there somewhere. Anyway. I can't remember who it's by, but it's really brilliant and it's such a quick read cause it's mostly kind of visual, but it's just really inspirational and how to share, show what you're doing every single day.

Vicki Handley: Yeah, I've not read, I've not read it, and I need to, it's on my list of books to read, but it's, it's, that's absolutely right, show, don't tell. It's one of the things that I say all the time to clients because people feel they need to like broadcast this amazing thing that they're doing. Or they feel really uncomfortable with things like sharing social proof or testimonials or stuff because they feel like they're bragging.

I'm like, okay, well, don't tell them then. Show them what you're doing. Like, I see this a lot in the agency space because I've worked a lot with agency owners on their own personal branding content in the past. And they'll share new client. End product. There's nothing in between. But I know from being in that space and working in that space and the conversations I've had, they're doing some really awesome stuff in there. Like they're having really detailed discussion, having brainstorms. They've got all these challenges they've got to overcome. They've got all these exciting kind of changes and ups and downs. And they just miss that bit out. And it's just like new client end result. You're missing the point because you're demonstrating your value and your worth with those examples. But also what you're like to work with what your processes are like and helping people to visualise that process of working together means they can buy into it and they can understand it. A lot of clients that I've worked with before me, they didn't know what working like a copywriter, what that would look like.

And the same with agencies, the same with any business. If you're outside that space and you're getting an expert to help you. You may not have worked with anybody like that before. So you don't know what to expect and it becomes too abstract and it's quite daunting making that contact. But actually if you just chronicle the process, document the process, whatever you want to call it, they're taken on that journey with you and then they're more invested in that end result as well. So yeah, thank

you for coming to my TED talk.

Charli Hunt: What thing to have a TED talk about. We, we probably need one. Especially service businesses, everybody's saying the same what and your why is obviously quite important, but the how is the most important thing for a service business.

Vicki Handley: Definitely. And I think, I'm at a point now in my life, and this is just my personal experience, but if I'm going to invest in a service, I need to know or feel like I know, like trust that person at some, like I know them in some way and I find them reliable and I find them credible. First place I'm going to do go to find that information is somewhere like LinkedIn and having a back, like a backlog of content and feeling like I understand who they are.

That's always going to make me want to make contact rather than a faceless website. Like we are all, whether we want to be or not in the service industry, we are all part of our product or ultimately some of us are, I, at the moment I am my product. Like people are buying me now because they come to me because they know me and they want me.

They don't just want a copywriter. They, they know that that's, that's who they want to work with. Um, which is amazing. It's a really privileged position to be in, but it's taken me a long time to get here. Just from putting that consistent effort and having it in and having as many conversations as possible, but it's possible for anybody. I genuinely believe that it really is with the right tools. It's possible for anybody to do. They just need to be willing to put themselves out there. And I know that's really scary for a lot of people. And it's definitely taken me a long while to learn how to do it in a way that feels comfortable. And it's constantly evolving and everything else as everybody does. But yeah, it's so worth it when you just let go, let go of those insecurities and fears and whatever you want to call it. When I started, I had my mousy brown hair, and my little boring glasses, and just, I was what I thought people wanted me to be, rather than who I actually am.

And at one point, I don't exactly know when the moment was, but, I my god, this is exhausting, I'm just gonna be me now. And actually, that was the turning point in my business, when people started coming out of the woodwork, because they really resonated with whatever I was talking about at that time. So, yeah, it's freeing, it's really freeing when you just decide to let go and just be. Rather than holding on to the perceptions of what you think other people want you to be or do or whatever.

Charli Hunt: It takes a while, doesn't it? To get that confidence. And I think if you want to be a bit bland in the beginning, that's okay. It takes a while.

Vicki Handley: Yeah, that's fine. Get the reps in, get used to it, and then push the limit of what feels comfortable is what I tend to do and encourage my clients to do. I'm not about, right, from, from Monday, we're going to be sharing your deepest, darkest secrets. So that's never going to, that's never going to work.

And then over time you get more comfortable with pushing that boundary a little bit. Feeling more confident and comfortable to share. It's like with anything, isn't it? Get the stabilisers on the bike, get that sorted, get the reps done, and then you take your stabilisers off and you're like, okay, let's elevate this. Now we're actually going to talk about what I'm selling.

That's a big one. So many people, they just don't post about any of that stuff. Like you don't even know they're selling anything. And then they're like, why, why am I not getting any leads? I was like, Oh my God, I can buy from you. So yeah, there's that whole worry about feeling salesy and icky around that. And again, it comes down to showing, not telling. Obviously you do need to tell people that there's something that they can buy or how to work with you, but you can also show what that experience is going to look like without having to, um, be really uncomfortable, which is how a lot of people feel about that sort of stuff.

But the first step is just putting yourself out there and just talking about what you're doing. Build up that confidence and then elevate it to those more uncomfortable levels. It's like any game, isn't it? You're just leveling up, leveling up, leveling up with what feels more comfortable.

And as you put those reps in.

Charli Hunt: Yeah, exactly. And then once you're comfortable, how do you start putting processes behind your personal brand or writing for your personal brand?

Vicki Handley: It took me a long time actually to realise I had a process. It was writing for other people, um, and then coaching people on how to make their own writing better that I had to really sit back and be like, okay, how do I actually do what I do? Cause it's all, it's all in your head to start with, isn't it?

And then just sitting back. It's one of the really good things that came out of the program that I've just created, um, is that I had to sit down and really think, how can I show someone, what I do, and like in terms of systemising mine, how I've really done that is I looked at loads and loads of personal brands out there, mine as well, obviously, but, bigger creators and other people in space.

And then I was like, what? What do they look like? And then what can I do to make people stand out? And I came up with six P's. I'm very lucky. They all began with a P. There's a nice bit of alliteration there for the word nerd in me. But yeah, I use six P's and that's to make, make a really well rounded personal brand and it's a combination of six things really.

So you've got your, People, it's really clear who you're talking to, and I'm not just talking about like demographics and geography and what job they've got and all the rest of it, but I like to focus on the real people that you're actually speaking to, so what are they thinking, what are they feeling, what are their needs, wants, expectations, all that kind of stuff, and incorporate that into the content so it's really clear exactly who you're going to be talking to. Talking about their pain points and their desires. That comes back to that problem solving that I was talking about before, making it really clear exactly how you're going to serve these people and what separates you from others.

Then there's talking about your actual Process, like what working with you looks like and what your customer journey looks like.

If you've got I don't know, freebies or other marketing channels that you're using, how all that fits together and how you make sure it's got a journey ultimately, like a path to purchase if you want, and then what that looks like afterwards. I've done posts before that have got me leads, which is just like this is what working with me looks like and then just literally a step by step list of like this is what somebody writing for you actually looks like, or what me writing for you looks like, this is what to expect, and that's brought things in. Then you've got your Practical information what do people need to know to get the most out of working with me? Stuff like that. When you, when you sit down and start thinking about this and start listing it out, you're like, actually, there's loads of things I could talk about. Then you've got Proof as well. This is a missing piece for a lot of people. If you've got screenshots, if you've got testimonials, that's perfect. But for a lot of people, they can't get them. A lot of people that I work with, they can't get them because of things like confidentiality agreements and NDAs.

I struggle myself. So it comes back to that showing, not telling again. So I share things like those testimonials, videos, screenshots when I have them. But when I don't, I just explain that whole process of what working together was like and the things that we overcame so they can see my expertise without bragging about it, without being like, look at this fantastic testimonial that's shining and it's beautiful.

And then the biggest one of all is that being able to show that Personality. So the things like your unique experience, and again it comes back to that know, like, and trust factor. Are you credible? Are you reliable? And who are you as a person? Because I just want to get to know who people are, what their background is, how they got to where they are now, what they like to do for fun, just all sorts of things.

I need to know what makes them tick, how they work, so I can get a sense of what the fit would be like if we were going to work together. So yeah, combine those six things, so you've got people, pain, process, practical information, proof, and personality, and you're onto a winner.

I think my Excel program is going through all those things and making sure you've got all those bases covered. And then in terms of content planning, I like to plan out a month in terms of my business objectives. And so I do this for my clients as well. So think about what the priorities are in the business there and then. And then I look at how can I take them on a bit of a journey over the course of a period of time. Some people do it day to day and they just talk about all sorts of random things and that works for some people, but for me, I need some sort of plan. I need an objective. I need to know what the content is going to be doing for me.

Is it getting me more followers? Is it nurture? Is it just getting to know people? Or is it conversion? Is it like, right, this is going to get me clients. How do I want to get calls booked? How do I want to do this? And I found that really, really helpful to just make sure that I nail all those six things, but also make sure that I'm doing what I need to do to get people from not knowing who I am to wanting to work with me.

So I thoroughly recommend that people do something similar. Just sit down and be like, right, what am I trying to do here? How am I going to get them to take the steps that I want them to take and that's a really good way of making sure that you understand and you're clear on what the purpose of your content is, rather than just posting and hoping, which I see so many people doing. And I did at the start. All of this thinking has come from years of experience. It's definitely a learning curve.

Charli Hunt: Definitely. And it's so nerve wracking to sell through writing at the beginning. Even though I'm a copywriter, I was terrified of doing it for myself for ages.

Vicki Handley: It's totally different doing it for yourself because there's ego attached to it and there's those person, those inner demons in your ear and they are always loud, especially when you're trying to do something that's important. And it's why I see a lot of service providers getting stuck in that education content because that feels safe. But it's when you start to take that education piece and connect the dots between knowing the theory and how you're applying it and what you're doing for people. One of the things that I teach people, in my program and when I do it for them is how to make those transitions. I'm not talking about those horrendous posts you see where someone's like, Oh, I bought a pair of shoes the other day. That's what it taught me about business. Or that guy that got absolutely slated a few weeks ago, got engaged over the weekend and turned it into a lesson about customer acquisition.

I was like. Jesus, it's not about that, but it is connecting those dots because connecting those dots between the knowledge that you have and how it's going to solve someone's problems and then how people can work with you. That's how you get those people that are middle of the funnel, they know who you are,

they like you into actually considering how and whether they want to work with you. It's definitely a really hard thing for a lot of people. I remember the first few I did, I felt sick. And I still felt sick when I got a few inquiries. I was like, oh my god, it works. And I was kind of annoyed that it works.

Because I was like, this feels really uncomfortable, I don't like it. So, yeah, but it does get easier. It still feels icky, still feels icky to me when I'm doing it sometimes. So I just want to throw that out there. It always does feel a little bit uncomfortable because you're putting yourself out there in another way, aren't you?

Because on one hand, you're like, what if no one responds? But then on the other hand, you're like, what if loads of people respond? So it's this constant inner voice, and it doesn't really go away. It just shifts slightly. You just, you just don't get as emotionally attached as well. And that's something else that I wanted to say is just make sure when you are posting content, you're not just posting content and expecting the leads to come to you. That's a really big thing. I expected this at the start. I would post and be like, right, I'll just wait for those leads to roll on in now. But actually your outbound activity is so important, like the engagement side of things, the DMing side of things. DMing is another thing that people really, really fear, um, because they put that conversation on a pedestal and they see it as a rejection that's yet to happen. I see that so often. Um, and it's like, Okay, one, you're getting way too attached to this potential one opportunity.

If you give yourself 50 opportunities, you care less about that one. I mean, obviously you care, but it becomes less of a, like, you put all your eggs in that one basket rather than kind of 49 others. But also all my opportunities come through conversations. I mean, as soon as I connect with someone, I send them a message just to say, hi, this is me. This is what I'm about. Um, and then just ask them a question, just trying to get a reply, like just trying to start a connection. It may not bear fruit right now. It may never bear fruit, but actually six, nine months down the line, people come back and then, Oh, I remember our conversation.

And yeah, it's don't, don't, don't. Don't restrict that side of the platform because it's really, really important. And even now, so many of my opportunities come from those conversations that I've had in the DMS. I do get inbound ones as well from the consistency. It's all part of two sides of the puzzle, isn't it? Um, but yeah, that outbound stuff don't ever stop. Don't ever stop and assume that the content will do the work for you because it won't, it just won't, it can't, it's, it's half of the work.

Charli Hunt: I was listening to Grant Cardone the other day talking, Cardone? Cardone? Anyway, talking about, in sales, you've just got to see it as, okay, I need to call 50 people to get one sale. So you just keep going through and you're happy when someone's rejected you because you can move on to the next one.

Vicki Handley: I really like that as well. Yeah, I resisted sales for a long time. And I wish now that when I was younger, the first job I got into a sales, I really wish that I had challenged myself and said, right, I know I'm not going to like this, but the skills, like the, the sales skills that I have now, just from learning from my friend, Chris, mainly, cause he's got years and years of experience in it. Sales skills are a game changer and people really underestimate them. Working in charities as my background before I became a copywriter. So I kind of had sales skills in a different area, because if you're fundraising, you're encouraging people to give you money . But yeah, looking back, I really wish that I just, gone into some horrendous call center just because I would be so much further ahead now because if you deal with that kind of rejection on a daily basis, you're gonna be really good at sales in not very long.

Charli Hunt: One of my first jobs was telesales for gym equipment. It was uh, it's so good. You get shouted at so much. Luckily not that much because I was talking to a lot of gym owners and they are very nice generally because they're very healthy. And they don't have anything to be cross about.

Vicki Handley: fair enough. Yeah, but I've heard some horror stories from people like knocking on doors and stuff like that, I don't think I could do that. I really wish that I'd started that earlier because I wonder where I'd be now if I'd just embraced it rather than hiding from it because it was a bit uncomfortable and a bit scary.

Charli Hunt: It's something I think, especially women struggle with sales as well, because we're not taught men, it must be very uncomfortable for them, but they are taught to kind of put themselves out there and not worry so much about rejection, whereas it's terrible for women if they get rejected.

Vicki Handley: Rightly or wrongly, I don't know whether this is a good thing or not, I find sales to be quite a masculine energy because you do have to be quite assertive and when you're doing incentives and stuff like that, it does feel quite like a masculine energy.

So I do have to make sure I'm in that right kind of place. Like I'll psych myself up before a sales call kind of thing so that I'm channeling that energy. But yeah, you're absolutely right. I hear it a lot. People just find it really, really uncomfortable, especially women. And actually I find now that, um, a lot of the people that I work with, they find selling through copy more comfortable because it's not as an interactive conversation as that kind of one to one.

So one of the things that we work on is getting the copy to do the groundwork so that you then go into a conversation with people who are already qualified. They already know who you are. They already understand. So it makes that experience a bit less frightening, 'cause it can feel really, really uncomfortable.

I hated sales at the start before I kind of learned how to navigate a sales conversation. They'd take control of the conversation. I'd basically pitch up and I'd be like, hi, I'm Vicki. I'm a writer. What do you need? I look back and I'm like, geez. And now I'm like, no, that's not how we do things around here.

We're gonna do this, this, this, this Um, and yeah, that confidence again comes through repetition and comes over time. I love it now. I love sales now. I used to hate it with a passion. I'd feel sick when I had a sales call in my diary, whereas now I'm like, yes. But actually for people that do struggle with it, reframe it.

Sales is service. You are trying to help someone and you're showing them how you can help them. And that's a really, really good reframe that. That worked for me right at the start. And for people that I work with now, I say it every so often. And they're like, Oh yeah, that really helps.

Cause then it's not a standoff, it's just not you versus them. It's we're collaborating, we're working together. And actually that kind of takes a bit of the fear off as

Charli Hunt: well.

That's a really good point and using the copy to sell or to do some of that heavy lifting is so valuable as well, because especially LinkedIn, you get that instant feedback on what connects with people and you solidify in your mind what it is that you are providing.

Sometimes it's so easy to get bogged down in what you're doing, and forget how valuable it is to other people.

Vicki Handley: Yeah, it is a big problem. And one of the reasons why I created ThinkWriteSell was because I see it all the time, people sharing content and they're talking about their service or their offer or whatever. As the delivery, as the service provider, as the person delivering it, but what they forget is until someone buys your job is a salesperson, you need to be selling the impact of what you're doing or the transformation, or, it's like benefits versus features, isn't it?

You need to be talking about what actually matters to them. I see copywriters do this all the time and they're talking about copywriting techniques. And I'm like, that is only ever going to attract other copywriters. I fell into this trap myself with my own newsletter when I first started it. I started a newsletter where I was showing people how to write better, but with the best will in the world, I was writing for people, the people that I wanted to work with were never going to read that newsletter because they want someone to do it for them. They either don't care about writing techniques, don't have time, or they don't have the skill or something's holding them back and they want someone to do it for them. But I was talking to people who wanted to learn how to do it. So it was never going to generate any leads. So that's what I mean. It's, it's in a classic example of trying to show your expertise, but in the wrong way. So when you see people talking about their course and it's got 40 hours of videos or it's got all these resources for you.

And it's like, yeah, that's great. I don't care about how many videos there are in a course. That's not a, that's not a motivator for me to buy. I want to know how it's going to solve my problem. I want to know how you're going to solve this for me, or how you're going to take this pain away, or how you're going to help me achieve this desire or whatever. It's always about applying the right lenses, the right spin to what you're doing. And yeah, never forget that until someone buys, you are a salesperson for your business, whether it's a service, whether it's a product, whatever, and just making sure that you're applying and talking about the things that actually matter to get them to make that buying decision, not the nitty gritty of how it works or not the copywriting technique that you like to use. That's irrelevant. You need to be looking at how that technique is going to solve their problem or how you apply it or yeah, it's all about impact always until somebody buys.

Charli Hunt: That's such a good point. I've seen so many copywriters just talk about how they copywrite, which is interesting sometimes as part of the mix because you want to know they know what they're talking about.

Vicki Handley: You want some of it. Yeah. yeah,

absolutely. But it can't be all of it. It can't be all of it because you're only ever going to get comments or interactions from other people in your field, whether they're a copywriter or copywriting adjacent, if you like, it's not going to appeal to the people that want you to write for them because it's, the nitty gritty of what you do. They're hiring you because they don't know that stuff. So, telling them about it. It's going to appeal to some who want to learn. But if they want to learn, they don't want someone to do it for them. So again, it's cross purposes. You're having two different conversations. So always make it about them.

Like what that pain point is, what the opportunity is or, and how you're going to take them from where they are now to where they need to be. I see it all the time. And every time I'm like, absolutely.

Charli Hunt: I guess these are just things you learn as you go on. And that is the beauty of LinkedIn is you can learn so quickly. Each piece of content is like instant feedback.

Vicki Handley: Yeah, absolutely. And if you track your popular posts, what resonates, it's all about repurposing as well. Don't feel like every single time you need to reinvent the wheel. One of the things that I do in my content sessions with people is I say, if you write one post, ask yourself the questions, who, what, when, where, why and how. So you've got five or six different angles. You can switch the focus of the post to who it's about or what you're talking about or why it's important or why it needs to be important to them, how, like when they need to be, like where they need to be, when it becomes important.

So there's, there's all these different ways. I mean, loads of creators have got similar ways of looking at it. There are all sorts of different frameworks and things to use to change the focus of the post. But yeah, absolutely repurpose. If you've got a post that pops off, use it again. I don't know, four, five, six months time. Don't fear doing that. It's perfectly okay. We all are business owners at the end of the day. Most of us don't want to be the next big content creator or big influencer or whatever you need to be really, really protect your time. So if you've got some high performers, keep reusing them, keep doing it.

And also the same goes with the lower performers as well. Actually, when you put some stuff out at the beginning, not a lot of people are going to see it, so when you get to the six month mark, look back at those past posts and see what you can improve, because you will have improved from that repetition. But also, there'll be stuff there that's got gold in it, you just need to, like now you've got a bigger audience after a period of time, put it out again and you'll, you'll see the results of your hard work paying off. So yeah, definitely repurpose, don't feel like you have to reinvent the wheel every single time, because who has time? Who has time for that.

Charli Hunt: And also no one's paying that much attention to what you're doing. Oh, LinkedIn posts six months ago. Someone's going to have read so many LinkedIn posts since then. There's no way they'll remember.

Vicki Handley: Yeah, exactly. I've never had anyone say, Hang on, I remember you posting this first time round. That's never happened. Never happened. Because you are the only person that sees all your content, right? Like, we think everyone's watching at all times, but no. No one, no one cares as much as you do about your content.

So, I always say just post it. Just post it. Because, yeah. Yeah, people forget about it and then move on to the next. So yeah,

Charli Hunt: Yeah. It does feel sometimes like all the people who train you on how to use LinkedIn are training you to be an influencer. Very few people are that bothered about becoming influencers. So, what are the vanity metrics and what are the metrics that we should actually be focusing on?

Vicki Handley: Everyone's obsessed with likes, comments, reach, all that kind of stuff. And individual post performance as well. Like I see people say, Oh, oh, this post flopped. Why do you think, why do you think that is? And I'm like, you just need to zoom out for one, like one post. There's so many variables that you cannot control.

It's pointless trying to work out why one post didn't perform. Sometimes I can tell because it's usually, it's usually around the hook, but like, if the sun's out, I get less reach. Like I can't control that. Why, why am I trying to, so for the first thing, zoom out, I look at 90 days worth of content, to assess performance and trends and stuff, because that's, that's a decent amount of data to work with. If you're trying to look at every single post, you're just going to drive yourself mad. That's the first thing. Um, the most important metrics are, for me anyway, are the number of calls I've got booked in the diary, and the number of DMs, conversations that have been, like, initiated from those posts. Comments are great. Don't get me wrong. They boost the performance and make sure that more people see it, which gives you more opportunities. So don't ignore those metrics. But most of the people in those comments are never going to buy from you. I've got a little tracker that I use that I just keep a, an idea, like a record of posts that have actually brought me in

leads or they've brought me in call bookings or they've brought me in messages. Or people have referenced in real life when I've met them and I, Oh, I remember your posts on this. Those are the posts that I track, not whether they got more than 2000 views or, you know, whatever, whatever the metrics are that you're looking for. I think it's really important to not lose sight of the metrics that actually matter because so many people, they get obsessed with the number of likes and the number of comments and yes, of course they do a job. But always the most important things are the ones that actually inspire someone to take some sort of action that you want them to take. So yeah, that's my best advice there because otherwise you will literally drive yourself mad. And some people, I've seen people drive themselves mad and get really het up about it and really anxious about it to the point that they stop posting because they're like, I can't do this anymore. I need a break.

I need to break from social media. It's like, no, actually you just need to look inward and look at your behaviour and your reaction to this and take a step back and think be more objective. I get why it happens. I really do. I get why it happens because people get so invested in it, but actually a lot of the time they're just looking at the wrong things and then as well, clients lurk. You don't necessarily know. Like the people that comment and like and engage every single time Probably not your buyers like and I see this is another thing that I see actually um, I see this happens a lot with coaches and mentors and consultants. They talk about really heavy hitting subjects and then they ask a question like tell me if this resonates or talk to me about your experience of I don't know imposter syndrome or whatever. No one's going to out themselves on LinkedIn in front of all their colleagues and all their past, their teams, their, their bosses.

No one is going to say, Oh yeah, I'm really struggling in my role. No one's going to do that. So when you're wanting engagement from people, meet them where they're at and what's reasonable. Cause I wouldn't post on something and say, Oh, well I probably would now cause I don't care so much, but at the start, I most certainly wouldn't comment saying, Oh yeah, this is really, really tough. So remember that the people that you want to attract, A, probably won't engage publicly, especially if it's a hard hitting subject. And yeah, focus on those metrics that actually matter, which are the ones that put money in your bank, not, those vanity metrics that we're so used to seeing on all social media platforms because those are the things that, um, influencers care about. And I know lots of people that have huge audiences, but they can't monetise because the audiences are the wrong people. So don't be afraid of being picky on connection requests you accept or reject or whatever either, because yeah, you want to make sure that

your audience is relevant and engaged, not numbers at all costs.

Cause I see people, I see courses, I see people shouting about Add everyone and anyone and do all these like grow for all costs. It's like no No, like I I made sales with less than a thousand followers on LinkedIn. You don't need huge numbers To be ahead of your competition. You really really don't. Don't feel like you can't compete with someone because they've got a huge audience as well because they may not have monetised. Please just focus on what matters And LinkedIn

Charli Hunt: as well shows your post to a small section of your audience. Then if it does well, a bigger section, and then it will go outside of your network. So if you're not, if you don't have relevant people who are going to comment on your stuff, it's not doing your content any favours either.

Vicki Handley: Exactly. And as well, another thing, don't fear repetition. People feel like because they've talked about a subject, that's it, they don't need to talk about it ever again. And you just, what you said about, it only shows it to a very small proportion of your audience. Chances are, most of them have missed it, so do not worry. Actually everything that we're doing on social, on all social media, is to get people to make associations between us and what we do and you do that through repetition.

That's why people remember the chorus of a song because they've heard it repeated a few times. Like everything that you do on socials, on LinkedIn or wherever, you want to be in people's peripheral vision and that consistency is how you get there. But also that's how they build those associations and then when they're ready or someone they know has a problem, they're like, I know who you need to talk to, that green haired woman off of LinkedIn or, or whoever. You want those associations, so actually repetition is your friend, not your enemy.

Charli Hunt: Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant. And we've talked a lot about, uh, LinkedIn. Are there any other platforms you think that people should be putting their content or business owners specifically?

Vicki Handley: Yeah, it's, I mean, it's going to depend on the industry. I'm toying with Instagram right now. But the thing that I love about Instagram that I wish was on LinkedIn is the stories side of things. Um, because I think that the missing piece for LinkedIn right now is that spontaneous content. It's really easy for doing that behind the scenes kind of stuff. For example, when I went to download at the weekend and I went to Atomicon straight after, I was doing stories of what I was doing and what I was enjoying. And that really helped people to get to know me a bit better. And then obviously those, those stories perform really well. Cause people love, like, you know, I was on stage and stuff.

So it was like, it's exciting stuff. I wish LinkedIn would bring that feature back because I feel like that's the missing piece now. Cause I feel like if I could have that as well, perfect. So yeah, I'm enjoying Instagram right now. It's very different in terms of the focus of the content.

I'm very much selling a person. I'm doing very personal stuff on there now to help people get to know me cause it's early days. But the video content on there, I'm really, really enjoying. But the other place that I found to be really lucrative in terms of finding clients is private communities where my target clients hang out. So whether that's a Slack community, whether that's a Discord community, whether it's a Facebook group, like wherever, it doesn't really matter. If it's a place where you can post content or interact with people or DM people or whatever within the rules of the community, because you know some are quite strict about that kind of stuff, it's a really good place. You've got their attention because it's a captive audience. And you can quite easily build relationships with people in there and then you can come out onto LinkedIn again and be like, Oh, I know you from this community. And then actually you can build it. You can do that work on that platform from a different place.

And it's really nice because you've built that connection somewhere else and you've got that shared interest and then you can bring them in that way. It's not purely for self promotion going into those groups. And then also I always recommend having some sort of email list or something as well, because you can't be on socials without hearing the kind of. What if LinkedIn went down? What if Instagram went down? They have gone down recently, haven't they, as well.

So having somewhere to take people off platform as well where you own that data is really important. Because you can have deeper conversations in their inboxes, and you can do special offers and if they feel like they've got exclusive access to you, you know, that kind of stuff.

Again, it really, really helps to build that relationship. So I always recommend having one primary platform and then one like email or something where you own the data. But I am toying with, with Instagram purely for the stories really.

Charli Hunt: LinkedIn

did have stories for a bit, didn't it? But yeah, they, I don't, I don't think they got, let everyone get used to it enough for it to take off.

Vicki Handley: No, no. But then they're known for bringing in random features that nobody wants and taking away the good ones like stories and like pinned comments and yeah, the inbox.

It's just, yeah. I

mean, that's why a line exists, right?

Charli Hunt: Yeah, exactly.

I'm very grateful.

Vicki Handley: Well, yeah, don't fix that, we'll keep this. But yeah, I miss that feature and I think it would have helped a lot of people to help people get to know them better. I think, I think they missed the trick taking that away, I really do. Hopefully they'll bring it back. And it'll be interesting to see how the video feed takes off as well. Cause that's another form of content that I enjoy watching.

I know it's not for everybody. It'd be interesting to see how that works out as it rolls out to more people.

Charli Hunt: Yeah, I think LinkedIn has an opportunity now to be this halfway house between TikTok and YouTube. So I think YouTube's become so informational now, and TikTok is obviously so just entertaining. So it would be great to see if there could be that middle ground between the two.

Vicki Handley: Yeah, I agree. I agree. And it's a great way to humanize as well. Like, um, and it really helps again with that no like and trust factor and to just get a sense of what a meeting with someone would be like just from how they come across on camera. I think business owners should be considering it if they're not already doing it. Definitely having some sort of video in their strategy. I know I need to do more of it, but it's definitely on my radar or something that I need to be doing more of.

Charli Hunt: Yeah, I think people really get to know who you are. If you go on video.

Vicki Handley: Yeah, and at the moment anyway, it really differentiates you as well because so many people are not willing to do it. I get why, it's uncomfortable. I prefer live video than actually recorded video because I feel less self conscious and it doesn't have to be as polished. Definitely need to do more of that stuff. Everybody.

Charli Hunt: Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. And if you could leave our listeners with one tip today, what would it be?

Vicki Handley: Can I leave them with two?

Charli Hunt: can.

Vicki Handley: Love to leave them with two. Know your objective, understand what you're trying to do from those posts. So many people just spaghetti at wall, spaghetti at wall. I'm just going to put this out and see what happens. And that is fine at the start, but please. As you get used to, as you build up the habit and everything else, remember why you're doing this, and what actions you want people to take, and encourage them to take those actions.

What is the purpose of this individual post, ultimately? If you know what it is, it will be clearer in your writing, and it will encourage them to actually take that step. And then the other thing is sell yourselves. Please talk about what you're selling and how people can work with you, but please just do that because it makes your life easier.

It feels really horrible and you'll probably think everyone's looking at you. They're not. But if you don't tell people how to work with you, they won't even know that you're selling anything. And they'll just think you're that nice person off the internet that gives them loads of advice for free. It changes the expectation when they actually know that there is something that they can either means they come out of the woodwork like, Oh my God, I didn't even know you had anything I could buy from you. Make your own opportunity. No one's going to do it for you. If you're doing your own thing, you are everything to your business. You are all the departments. Be that salesperson in as non threatening environment as you can probably be in. It paves the way for everything that comes after that.

Charli Hunt: Brilliant. Thank you so much, Vicki. And if people like this episode, how can, where can they find you and how can they work with you?

Vicki Handley: So I'm on LinkedIn. I'm Vicki Handley on LinkedIn. I'm the green haired one. On Instagram, I'm the Vicki Hanley. And if you want to see more about what I do and how I do it, my website is quirkcopywriting.co.uk.

Charli Hunt: Thank you so much.

Vicki Handley: No worries. My pleasure. Thank you for having me.